Allyship and Inclusion Are More Than A Two-Way Street with Dr. Victoria Mattingly

Welcome back to Autistic Techie.

I am thrilled today to be joined by Dr.

Victoria Mattingly, also known as Dr.

V.

She is an organizational psychologist, leadership development strategist, workplace inclusion expert, and author.

We had a chance to talk before about a book that she's written lnclusalytics and she's got a new book coming up that I'm really excited to talk about being a really effective ally

and seeking out allies in life, in the workplace.

Her insights and experience would be super beneficial to the folks on our show.

Dr.

V, welcome to Autistic Techie

Thank you for having me.

Of course.

Can you tell me a little bit about yourself and how you got into the space of inclusion and advocacy and allyship?

Absolutely.

So I am an organizational psychologist, meaning I use data and science to improve the human experience at work.

I really started more in the learning and development space.

So how can we train leaders and employees to not just be better at their jobs, but to be more emotionally intelligent and better, you have better leadership skills and be more,

you know, just compassionate and kind in the workplace.

And so that lens really

lended itself nicely when I got into DEI work, diversity, equity, inclusion work.

So that was back in 2016.

I was working for a leadership development company and they were building out a women in leadership practice.

And I noticed that, you know, all the content intuitively was what women should do, what women should say, you know, how women should behave differently.

But if you look at most organizational hierarchies, the higher up you go, the less and less women there are.

And so I had the realization that

if we don't actively include men in gender equality work in the workplace, we're never going to make the same type of progress that we would make otherwise.

So I proposed building a Men as Allies training program, which they went for, and it was the basis of my dissertation.

And you can train male executives to

be better allies to women in the workplace.

That was the big conclusion from the study.

It's still a commercial product you could buy from this leadership company today, which is really cool because most dissertations just sit on a shelf and collect dust.

But that really was my entrance into workplace inclusion and allyship.

I've since taken a far more broad approach, so far more intersectional because it's not just gender, it's not just race, it's neurodiversity, it's mental health, it's caregiving.

A veteran, you know, there's just so many ways that we could help and support those from various identities in the workplace by being inclusive and by being allies.

I think the idea of being an ally is really interesting, especially if you are in a group that sometimes comes under fire as well.

I am, for all intents and purposes, a white guy in the workplace, and I am also neurodivergent.

So I have this unique perspective where I benefit from allyship advocacy, but I can also be an ally and advocate for other people who are being marginalized.

How do you think about that intersectionality, especially when it comes to allyship?

So my forthcoming book brings that concept to life in a really visceral way.

the book itself is two books in one, and one is how to act like an ally, and the other side is how to partner with an ally.

So your example is beautiful for aligning with the book, right?

Because as a white male in the workplace, you have an opportunity to be an ally.

but someone who has neurodivergence, you could benefit from allyship as well.

And so the two books reference each other.

So I'll say in the, what I call the partner side of allyship, so the person benefiting from allyship, I'll say in their side of the book, you know, I'm telling allies on page

A44 to be courageous.

So give them something courageous to do.

And I want them to flip over the book and read what she's saying on A44.

And then when you get to the middle, and this is, you know, my answer to your question,

When get to the middle, says, because that's when the middle of the book happens, that's the end of both books.

And so it says on one side, they just might end up being an ally to you.

And then you flip it over.

You just might end up being an ally to them.

So there might be a case where, you're working with a neurotypical individual and she's a woman.

And so you could work with her as your neurotypical ally.

But then.

in a different context, you could be her male ally as a woman in the workplace.

And so my goal is when you get to the end of the book and you read that and you flip it over and you see the other side, you go, I need to read the other side of the book now

too.

So I want to clarify something that I thought was really cool.

So when you say that it's two books and one, I thought, oh, like it's one half, then the book ends and you go to the next book.

But you actually like flip the book upside down and you read it from the other direction.

Exactly, exactly.

So if you're reading it, it looks like you're reading a book upside down and backwards from like someone just observing, but then you flip it over and you can read the other

side.

So the book reads the right direction, you know, on both sides.

It just flipped so you can have that effect.

That's really cool.

Like, how did you even figure that out with like a publisher or a printer that feels like a really interesting gimmicky kind of thing that I'm shocked I haven't seen that much more

of that in any sort of book to really drive the point home that if it this is like two halves of the same coin and not necessarily a linear approach.

Exactly.

So it's been used in poetry as well as children's books.

But you're right, it's not used in like nonfiction or adult books really, you know.

And then I don't know where the idea came from, honestly.

I I've been wanting to write this book for a very, very long time.

And that that

example I gave earlier about the male executive allyship program I did with that one company for my dissertation, something that's always bothered me since doing that work is,

I helped these men be better allies, but I did nothing to prepare the women that they're supposed to be working with.

And so imagine, you know, you're Susan and your boss Bob, who you've worked for the last 10 years, comes in your office one day and says, Susan,

I'm ready to be your ally, help you grow your career and and I'm going to be your champion, your sponsor, I'm going do all these things for you.

And of course, Susan's like blindsided, like where have you been for the last 10 years, Bob?

Like where is this coming from?

And so having that other side of the book for that partner, for that individual working with an ally that was really missing from my initial work in allyship.

So this is my way of kind of making up for that.

And then I, you're right, it's not a linear process.

So what I didn't want was to have one full book and then a pause and then the next full book.

like whatever book you put first, you're kind of saying it's more important almost, you know?

And I wanted it to feel like two very separate books, even though they're bound together.

But they feed into each other too.

Like everybody benefits from some sort of allyship or advocacy in one point in their lives, no matter who they are, disability or not, skin color or gender, everybody benefits

from that at some point in time in their lives.

Absolutely, absolutely.

And I think that message largely got left out of diversity, equity, and inclusion over the last few years.

I think because that message wasn't being, you know, proclaimed, a lot of people felt left out.

But from DEI, they felt excluded.

And allyship is truly a way to get everyone involved, not just as allies, as you said, but also as beneficiaries from allyship as well.

You had a something really important because this idea of allyship and advocacy, can feel intimidated to somebody who's not prepared to receive it or isn't prepared to go after it

and ask for it.

And I have talked on this podcast a lot about ask for what you need, ask your team for support, ask them to help you.

But for people who have no idea what that even means, where would you say just getting started with reaching out and opening that door?

can be scary.

What would you say to somebody who's doing that?

for the first time.

Yeah, so I have multiple chapters in the books about trust and building trust.

And so my recommendation for this is find someone that you already have some of that trust built up with, know, maybe a colleague that you've worked with for a while, like a work

buddy, you know, someone that, you know, would have your back and can have that safe space for it because the more trust you have between yourself and an ally, you know, the more

authentic and vulnerable you can be in these conversations the more of a safe space is held and you know asking for what you need is going to be so much more well received

whereas asking someone for the first time out of nowhere you don't know what to expect right and so I think starting with that trusting person that safe person like hey like I'm

thinking about

asking for this, know, what do you think?

Do you think it will be well received?

You know, like, or, you know, can you be my accomplice?

Like people keep talking over me in meetings.

Like, can you help like stand up for me?

You know, or can you help me to advocate for closed captions on our Zoom calls?

Like, you know, we have my back with that.

So I think just starting with someone that's already like in your circle and then.

you'll develop that muscle for self-advocacy moving forward when it's someone who is like a boss or someone that you don't know very well, but you need to advocate for something

with them.

Part of that comes down to political capital or social capital.

I have had the benefit of being able to leverage that sort of authority on different teams that I've been on.

I've started from being an entry-level junior person, and now I'm a tech-leaded organization where I have the ability to leverage the political capital.

When people are thinking about that, whether they are in need of political capital or they have it and can leverage it, how do you think that plays into the idea of advocacy and

allyship?

I mean, it's a huge factor on both sides.

do you have that political or social capital to draw from to get allies, have people to, know, like allies are only as good as what they can offer, right?

So you need to like have allies in positions of power and allies who have, you know, strong networks and strong connections and are influential, right?

And so, you know, being on the partner side, having people with.

that social and political power is really important.

And then being on the ally side, that's your leverage, right?

That's what you're bringing to these ally partnerships is be able to say, like, let me introduce you to my network, come to this event with me.

I'm gonna talk about you when you're not in the room, right?

Like I'm gonna leverage my own political and social power to help, you know, get you where you need to be and get you what you need in this organization.

So I think it's a very big factor.

It's also where the concept of privilege kind of lies because, you know, the term privilege, people get really offended by being called privilege.

It's a very triggering term for people in power, particularly.

But having social and political capital, that is a privilege.

That's a power.

Like that's something that reflects exactly.

And so by recognizing your influence and your resources as as things to

support others rather than, you know, you unjustly have this leg up, you know.

It's like no, like I have these resources, I'm going to share them, I'm use them for good, right?

How can we reframe privilege as a good thing?

something that I've experienced is leaders and allies who have a lot of influence to leverage.

And sometimes it can feel like they're using that to kind of topple me over when you're trying to push back against an accommodation that I may need or someone else may need.

And it's too much.

It's overwhelming.

And other people who are more intentional will like do little bite sized pieces of the influencer leverage because if if I asked for something and I'm just a junior engineer,

people aren't really going to buy into it.

But if a principal

software engineer asks for it or a senior engineering manager asks for it, there's a lot more weight behind that.

And on this show, I have spoken to somebody who's a principal software engineer, Adam Compton, and he talked about that.

He said, when I asked Pacific as a principal engineer, it's a principal engineer asking for it and not just a more inexperienced person.

And I think that also comes into neurodiversity a little bit because I think as a neurodivergent person,

I can feel that anxiety about I have the power and I want to leverage it, but I'm also afraid of the social norms, the stereotypes of not damaging my own career by asking for

what I need, even if I have the acumen to back it up.

In your work and in your books, do you differentiate between different kinds of advocacy and allyship based on neurodiversity or disability or something else?

Or how do you...

differentiate or group different types of those things together.

Yeah, I don't get, I try to be really comprehensive with the examples I use throughout the book.

So I have, you know, representation across a wide variety of identities.

I don't get into like identity specific guidance just cause like that could be a whole book in and of itself.

Allyship for neurodivergence, allyship for women, allyship for LGBTQ, like that could be its own body of work.

so exactly.

And there are a lot of books out there on that, on those topics.

But I think.

The core call to action or the core premise of the book is that you really should never be doing allyship on your own because the best way to be an ally is to meet the unique needs

of the individual that you're trying to serve as that ally.

And so when it comes to neurodivergence, even within the neurodivergent community,

there's gonna be a lot of variation.

Some people, you we don't want the eye contact, loud sounds, lights, you know, I'm okay with that, but I can't do the small talk.

can't, you know, I there's, everyone has their own recipe, their own formula for what they need from others to create a, you know, healthy experience of belonging and acceptance,

you know, in any environment, especially the workplace.

And so, bye.

partnering closely with the individual you're trying to serve, you're going to make sure the things you do as their ally are the things that are actually going to accommodate that

individual.

So I think that's the really the the core like premise of the book and to ensure that any work an ally does.

is as relevant and applicable to that individual as possible.

Because what we end up having sometimes is these champion allies and these savior allies and these people coming in on their horses and their knights and they're going to save the

day and they're going to change all the things.

It's like, no, who are you serving?

Who are you serving?

Who told you to do this?

Too much.

Too much.

If it's not going to help, it's not worth doing.

And so I think just making sure

you fully understand what the person means that you're trying to be an ally for and meeting them there and not overreaching when it comes to your role as an ally.

There's also this idea of assuming what somebody needs and this is something that really applies in neurodivergent people.

Like me being autistic, I have a unique set of needs that are specific to me.

For me it's more social, it's sensory, it can be tactile.

And other autistic people can struggle really with communication, with social cues, which I do as well.

And I think you really hit the nail on the head as far as people.

Assuming that they know what they have to do in a situation and not even bothering to ask the marginalized group, hey, what do you actually need?

What do you really need help and support with?

Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely.

It's a tough one, because like, I've personally experienced so many times like, my nephew is autistic.

And so I'm going to do all the same things to you that I to him.

And it's not, it doesn't come from a bad place.

It comes from a place of genuine want to do good, but it ends up not helping.

It ends up almost hurting sometimes when I am compared to someone's nephew or family member and I am autistic.

And it's like, no, it doesn't really work.

And

In your work, in your experience, how do you recommend self advocates to push back against that?

Is it being more clear?

Is it being more explicit?

Because on the one hand, you need allyship and advocacy, but then also you don't want to turn people away completely because if you shoot them down, they may leave and never come

back.

So how do you think about that?

Yeah, so a concept in the books, this is in the Partners book, is I have a whole chapter on grace.

And I think a lot of times when allyship goes wrong is that we're really quick to condemn allies and cancel allies and you know, like just tell them they did it wrong, right?

And like, these are people who are putting themselves out there.

for no other reason aside from they're trying to just help others.

Like allyship is a very thankless thing to do.

And then they get shut down and told that they're doing it wrong.

Like they're not gonna be an ally, not just to you anymore, but to anyone anymore.

And so this concept of grace, it's not a lack of accountability by any means.

If an ally truly does something wrong.

part of that redemption process is apologizing and not doing it again in the future, right?

That's accountability.

But offering grace for those first time offenses, you know, hey, like, thank you for doing this thing.

Like, I really appreciate it.

I see, you know, your intention and what you want and why you did this in the future, though, it would be a lot more helpful if you did this thing instead.

Right.

So you're starting from a place of

appreciation and acceptance and I see you, I see what you're trying to do as my ally, but in the future, this would have a lot greater impact on me if you did this thing instead,

right?

As opposed to just coming at it like, you're wrong, you did it wrong, then they're not gonna do anything ever again, right?

And that's not what we want, we wanna create a space, the same way that allies create safe spaces for partners.

It's a partner's, you know, responsibility to create a safe place for their allies too, right?

We need to be able to have these vulnerable conversations both-sided, right?

So you can continue to work together moving forward.

That can also be tough because different people...

need different kinds of allyship and advocacy, what I need may be different from somebody else.

And especially for people who are neurodivergent or have other disabilities, the exact needs of a person might be unique to me.

And so the kind of allyship that I need, the kind of advocacy that I need might not pertain to somebody else.

And so I can educate somebody on exactly what I need, then I go do it with somebody else and it's all wrong or it's all different.

What I need as an autistic person is not exactly what somebody

who is ADHD, is dyslexic, has depression, has.

How do you think about that?

Like resolving those differences but not in a way that overwhelms or bombards people.

Yeah, I think it's really focusing on the fact of for me to be the best ally, I need to understand what that individual means, right?

If I get really good at that, it's okay if what that looks like differs from person to person.

It's to be expected, right?

But I'm really good at building trust, at having clear and direct communication, at asking really thoughtful questions, understand your perspective and what you need.

being really open to feedback and know, open minded just in general, right?

And so if I get really good at those things, it's okay if the answers to those questions are very different from person to person, but I have my ally methodology down so I can

provide those unique needs to each individual.

that makes sense and definitely something that I think is more scratching the surface.

It's a pretty densely loaded term and knowledge as far as actually being able to be meaningful with respect to every individual who needs allyship.

I've been at a couple of events where I introduced myself, I'm an autistic person, et cetera, and then people come up to me and like, like.

In the past, I have used the puzzle piece as a method of support.

And I realized that I was trying to do a good thing, but I was actually wrong.

I'm sorry if like you see puzzle pieces on my car or something.

And I was always surprised by people being aware of that.

I'm weird that they were trying to do a good thing, but it may have actually been doing harm.

And that could be really challenging for people.

like, how do you receive that as a...

individual.

Like if somebody comes to you and says, I'm sorry for doing this wrong, when they if they realize that there's something wrong, how do you then reconcile?

as the partner or as the ally.

as the, on the receiving end of the ally ship, the partner, I guess.

so.

I think it just goes back to the grace thing and how I mentioned before, know, like it's great.

It's grace with accountability.

So I recognize I did this thing wrong and I'm sorry, and I'm not going to do it again.

And if, that's what the ally says, then being able to just accept that, know, and, and you better believe that they do the thing again, you call them out on it, right?

Hey, you said you weren't going to do this thing anymore.

You just did it again.

Like what's going on here, right?

But I think an important,

thing to remember in allyship and just in you know human interactions in general is no one's a perfect person right and we have this false notion that I'm a good person right

and good people don't do bad things or the other way around like I thought you were a good person you did this bad thing so now I'm gonna think you're a bad person right we need to

get out of that line of thinking because

anyone can mess up, right?

Even the the goodest of people make mistakes, right?

And and bad people can eventually become good people because it's not who we are, it's what we do.

That's what really matters is our behavior.

And so just recognizing that this person is a human and humans make mistakes and it's not going to be the only thing I use to ever judge their character, you know, or their

goodness, right?

And as long as they don't

continue making those mistakes over and over again.

Like we all deserve the grace and forgiveness that allows us to move on.

I think that's really important.

Like actions speak louder than words.

Like we are human, we make mistakes, whether we are aware of it or not.

And it's that ability to come back from that and say, wow, I actually realized that I was trying to do something good here, but I was misinformed or just not doing it correctly.

And to kind of close us out here, what has been the most interesting or unique thing that you have learned through your journey being an ally and teaching others about allyship and

advocacy?

Something I found really surprising and interesting was some research that came out a few years ago about ally motivations.

So what motivates people to be an ally or not be an ally?

And when it comes to not being an ally, it's not because people don't care.

It's not because they're bigoted or discriminatory.

It's not because they're against allyship in general.

It's because no one invited them in to be an ally.

No one invited them in to do this work.

so it's not my place, right?

I'm not gonna get involved in the DEI efforts.

I'm not gonna get involved in the employee resource groups.

I'm not gonna talk about women's issues as a man in the workplace or whatever, because it's not my place.

No one invited me in.

And so if we can keep that.

research in mind when it comes to allyship and our role as those partners, as those recipients of allyship, sometimes it just takes saying, hey, I'm needing some help.

I'm having these issues.

Would you be willing to be my ally to help me work through this?

And chances are that person's going to say yes and they're going to be happy to help because at the end of the day, people want to feel

valuable, they want to feel like they can you know make a positive impact on this world and so by inviting them in to be your ally you're giving them that opportunity.

Yeah, there's like the idea of opening the door for allyship and reaching your hand through and grabbing someone else's hand on the other side to yank them through.

I think that's a great metaphor for this whole process.

I think in my experience, people want to do better, but they might be anxious about doing it wrong or not doing it in the right way.

And I think that really sums up.

your work very well and this entire conversation around meaningful allyship and meaningful advocacy.

Dr.

V, I very much enjoyed this conversation and I want to get a copy of that book eventually.

Where can people find it on the web and we're going to connect with you?

Absolutely.

So if you go to mattinglysolutions.com slash allyship, all the info about the book is on there.

That's also my website.

I'm very active on LinkedIn, so feel free to connect with me on there.

But mattinglysolutions.com should have all the info you need.

I will make sure that I have links to all of this in the show notes.

People can just click on it from my website, from wherever you're listening from.

Dr.

V, thank you so much for this really thoughtful and amazing conversation on allyship and advocacy.

Thanks for having me.